Clairvoyance provides the greatest number of charges, but is the least reliable.
Astral travel provides fewer charges, but also applies an 'astral link' which very briefly allows casters to summon through no-portal rooms.
Shadow gaze is an area spy on a standard prevention, and is undetectable.
Oh, and Koj'ehr get bonus clairvoyance and astral travel charges thanks to 'distant understanding'. =)
The benefits of, and reasoning behind, this change include:
- Reduces the ease with which a PvP target may be "locked down". Redesigning the scrying abilities to be area-limited means that hunting down a specific person (especially in no-visit areas) requires actual effort and movement (whereas previously a single charge from a spybot would do, without even requiring a pause in running).
- Indirectly increases the value of hunting skills (such as shadow) and of ancillary detection skills (such as aspect of the seer and skyline interchange).
- Reduces the redundancy of utility provided by multiple casters. (Previously, having one spybot sharply reduced the value of further spiers.)
I had originally planned a targeted class discussion first (hi monks!), but we wanted to get this implemented and delivered to you first. Please feel free to discuss in the comments, as I swing back to individual classes and crafting.
Thanks for your feedback, patience, and encouragement - and thanks for playing!
Get your pitchforks here guys!
ReplyDelete⎯⎯∈ ⎯⎯∈ ⎯⎯∈
So this stops visit how? What about the fact that players are still being rewarded for killing players who stand no chance against them? Also, you need to put in the help files how tog PLAYER KILLABLE stops working at 300, or change it. PK protection is not an alternative. Even if you wait for just one tick before you run out and kill again, your running has been cut dramatically, AND those farming you get rewards for you so much as leaving safe to get your reduced rates. The playing field is still extremely unbalanced due to specific races/classes and the unfortunate way that pracs scale. Until a way to opt out of PK exists, this really changes nothing.
ReplyDeleteYou should frame your discussion better. It really just sounds like you're venting about the fact that this is a pvp mud; if you want to make arguments for changing the nature of the game, and suggestions for doing so, it really just sounds like you're sad that pk exists on Nodeka.
DeleteThe sad thing is not that PK exists on Nodeka, but that PK is so skewed in favor of those who donated pre-wipe. But hey, let's pretend that those who donated pre-wipe weren't given a huge advantage to those who didn't. Way to draw in new players. Also, let's pretend that classes are balanced in a way that enables players to actually have fun with pvp instead of being prevented from playing entirely. This isn't a PK mud, it's a griefing simulator. But what do I know. Also, it's 2015. People want pve and pvp, and if there isn't enough playerbase for a server for both, it's custom to acclimate the game to player needs. If you can't opt for what you want in a game, this one is doomed to fail. Griefers will grief until there is no one left to grief, and then leave. Just like last time. Tell me I'm wrong.
DeleteBut since we're victim blaming, let's point the finger back in your direction. The problem is that those who can PK benefit from PK, while those who cannot are slowed in growth, further distancing the gap from the haves and the have-nots. Obviously the largest group against changes in the current pk system are those who benefit from it, so those folks would resist change. You can't tell me that this system is balanced. Archimage of war can prevent a single person from casting or using skills, but a barbarian can prevent an entire ROOM from using spells. If you call that balanced, I suggest you look at which side of the fence you're on. If you want to gain from those lesser than you in the long run, you'll need to appeal to keep those who are smaller than you in the game, or run some multis for you to farm on your own. Shrug, that's probably happening right now, but that's not the issue at hand. The issue is that the big grow bigger, while the small stay smaller. Folks like to know they're progressing, and that this is a "pk mud" is a piss poor excuse on why they can't progress. Donations now are 1/2 what they were pre-wipe, so I don't need to explain why that's a stupid expectation to bridge the gap.
Delete(1) we're big proponents of change. we're just not big proponents of whining or whinging.
Delete(2) you had an opportunity to call forge OP. you're just bitter over ONE set of fights. it's not a new spell or anything
(3) are you still going on about multis because Trebax increased dramatically in rank in less than a week after switching to witch? you know, after he had a chance to get his skills to 100% and put his practices back in? or the part where exactly two of us were wearing Ruushi gear, and I wasn't even wearing full gear, just select pieces of the cheapest budget gear I could find, which I earned by participating in Ruushi actively?
(4) balancing happens, we all support it, but you simply chose to use this as a platform to really /wrist on a post regarding spies being removed and the skills being altered, which is a strong step in the right direction in reducing the amount of unpreventable pk, and implemented in an interesting and unique way. but nah, let's call the whambulance.
tl;dr - qq+
Good job on once again smother the problem with QQ accusations instead of actually addressing the real and rampant problem that is class imbalance. It's not just one set of fights that is the issue, it is that every fight in one way or another is imbalanced due to the way that practices scale, and the fact that some classes are simply lacking entirely. For that matter, mage classes, arguably half of the game, lack entirely. You basically saw your chance to sum up the hilarious imbalance that is PK as a whole in nodeka as one or two interactions between characters, and tried to dismiss it as such. Thanks for playing, but you obviously can't see the forest from the trees. Pk is hard broken, and controlled in its entirety on the mud by a small group of folks. So yeah, this is a step in the right direction, but until it's fixed, PK should be optional. There really shouldn't be any question about it, but the only folks crying that it should not be optional are the ones benefiting from it. So, by all means, keep up your fight for forced pk. When there is no one left to pk, you'll wish you hadn't.
DeleteAre all classes perfectly balanced? No, of course not.
DeleteThat being said, you are grossly exaggerating the extent of the balance issue (especially for pk) - probably due to your limited experience with it.
In the vast majority of cases the problem with perceived imbalance isn't with the skills and spells themselves, but with the fact that there is a big rift between the players who know how to maximize the use of the abilities at their disposal and the ones who do not.
Take monk for example, by Ocellaris' estimation monk is grossly overpowered (in terms of damage, tankability, and many other aspects) and he blamed it almost entirely for his losses the last time Blade fought Ursa. However this time round it was Ursa who had a big monk in the fight (Vision) and his impact was minimal at best.
By that same token, your comparison of barb forge and archimage weapons is similarly flawed. Yes forge is immensely powerful with the potential to turn battles - however it is on a much longer prevent (and barbs can't bend it), affects only spells (as opposed to the skill/spell combo of spatha/trident), and most importantly unlike spatha/trident that can target specific enemies and has no detriment on your own group - forge affects all your group's casters too. In short - yes it is 'more powerful' but it is also much less versatile and harder to use.
I could go on but that seems to be the only real and salient point that you raised throughout all your posts. In fact your rant seems more to do with you and your friends complete ineptitude as a players as opposed to any real point about imbalances.
To quote Argh: Thank you come again.
Thanks for the changes to these forms of spy. I feel like it will allow people being harassed a little bit of an easier time trying to run / hide if they want to put effort into it.
ReplyDelete^ Gevurah
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DeleteSixth sense helpfile needs to be updated. (Second gift, and perhaps the command itself could be updated?) It's strictly passive now, right? So perhaps players shouldn't be able to use it as an ability.
ReplyDeleteThanks - I do need to update the sixth sense help file. It isn't strictly passive, though - it can still sense NPCs.
DeleteI should also update the help files for surrounding sense, aspect of the seer, skyline interchange, and the ground's edict, since they now interact with anti-distance magic and sixth sense.
While we're at it, can we get the player killable help file updated to warn future players that this tog doesn't work at 300?
DeleteAgreed, the PK rules (helpfiles as well as functionality itself) need to be more clear. I will update the helpfile, although we're currently examining and considering functional changes as well.
DeleteEncouragement! Thank you for taking the time to work on improving balance. It always feels like your balancing is well-planned and carefully considered. Taking spy out of the game was a long time coming, wasn't it? The new redesign looks interesting. Any chance that fallads and dajas might get astral travel? =P
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ReplyDeleteBoth positive and negative feedback is encouraged - I'm definitely more than happy to look at all sides of an argument. At the end of the day, fulfilling designs and the path towards a better gaming environment are always the first goals I aspire to.
DeleteI also understand that, especially in a competitive game, frustration and emotion are always part of the mix. I don't expect every nuance of every conversation to be rational or well-supported - I'm all about venting. =)
However, there are limits to the amount of abusive, unfounded, or provocative aspersions which I will tolerate - after a certain point, it's petty and distracting. I've deleted this post for crossing that line (and will do so for similar content-less slurs).
Fair enough, let's expound on the problem that's not being resolved (again.) Spies are only half of the problem. Visits are another part entirely. If visits are not addressed in the same way that spies are, the problem of griefing to the point of complete inability to play the game remains. The problems surrounding PK are vast, and balance issues will require copious amounts of testing, balancing, and retesting. Class balancing is simply not enough. There is also team PK balancing, gear balancing, and practice scaling. PK is very rock paper scissors. If you can beat someone once, you can probably beat them a hundred times. I've heard several players mention that you simply have to roll over and take it until you can get the time invested to be competitive. By that time, however, those farming you have also progressed, and you simply cannot keep up. So you continue to be farmed by these people, unable to defend yourself. So yeah, it's frustrating. It gets even more frustrating when these people farm you every single day, and are able to grow faster than you simply because they are able to farm you. That part was really important, so I'll say it again. They are able to grow faster than you simply because they are able to farm you. There's no preparation to this, no strategy. Not really. You have the skills you have and the prevents you have, and the most important part of that is the time you have invested into the game. Without that, you're a goner, and you will continue to be a goner in that fight indefinitely. It's not really a game at that point, there's no incentive to be better, because you simply exist to be fodder for someone else's growth. If there's any emotion in that, it's apathy. Why should I keep playing, if the major purpose of me logging in is to get someone the 20k plats in 5 minutes, that it takes me 3 hours to farm? Let's face facts here. PK needs a lot of work. That's fine, but until that happens, we need to stop rewarding those profiting from a flawed system.
Deleteby the way, in your words "However, there are limits to the amount of abusive, unfounded, or provocative aspersions which I will tolerate"
DeleteSo whatever was in that deleted comment I'm guessing was worse than someone who, in the same post, used QQ, "whambulance" and /wrist? I would call that needlessly inflammatory.
Yes, it was worse. As I've reiterated many times before, I want discussion from all sides of the spectrum, and I fully understand venting/frustration and therefore I don't expect every item of feedback to be fully sculpted, grammar-correct, and 100% constructive.
DeleteThis means that I try not to delete posts with valuable feedback and actual content in them, even if they may contain childish attacks or unfounded assumptions. For example, see your comment two posts prior.
However, posts that consist entirely of snark, baiting, ad hominem attacks, etc. - such as your comment directly preceding this one, as well as the original deleted comment - are entirely in danger of deletion.
I think its a good update overall. Will definitely take some getting used to, but it certainly makes locking down someone who is actively avoiding it a lot more difficult.
ReplyDeleteThanks Whim,
-Iblis.
agreed - it'll take some getting used to with spies not being as they were, but I think it's an interesting way to change it up a bit. I also love how it removes the use of "spy bots."
ReplyDeleteYep great changes, I'm ever hopeful that this might open up pkill to more people of all sizes, now that it will actually take effort to retaliate.
ReplyDelete- Mage
Mage, with the jokes. #mysides
DeleteThis was a great change for multiple reasons - it essentially removes spy for game, which both make it slightly more difficult to find what areas players are in (ESPECIALLY players with trackless/blended) - also it super enhances !spy races to the point where it's almost pointless to even try.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it prevents spiers from having constant tabs on other players when they form up for a gank or whatever, so it's much more difficult to out-maneuver enemy movements.
this change is very much needed. And finally the Hunter class is now lives up to its namesake
ReplyDeletethis change is very much needed. And finally the Hunter class is now lives up to its namesake
ReplyDeleteWith the change is there any hope that shadow gaze will no longer share a prevent with followers gaze of return?
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ReplyDeleteThe system you're describing i.e. one where growth 'bottlenecks' as you get larger is really already present in a more subtle way: After a certain point for the majority of classes your ppm remains relatively static, but at the same time the cost of growth gets much higher - so your returns on plat/exp invested is much lower.
DeletePersonally I would like it if there were some avenues for faster advancement for smaller characters - either through pvp or quests, or some other mechanism.
Frankly though, the player gap now is dramatically more friendly than it has been for ages (possibly ever since augments were put in?). In my opinion the perception of that gap is what impedes a lot of players, while the reality is that the gap is a lot closer and can be overcome with pk-oriented race/class/eq/pracs choices.
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DeleteTrebax covered a lot of the more relevant points in his response below, but as far as bridging a rank gap - people like Argh/Trebax/Syveril have consistently fought well above their rank since the pwipe. Matter of fact, right now that 25k rank footpad Feather is killing people over three times his rank - and he isn't even level 100.
Deletebig fish vs little fish will usually win in straight out conflict - which is why I believe that iblis was pointing towards ways to make it more difficult for the big fish.
ReplyDeleteFor example, races with pk aspects aren't super terrible for running (with exception to liche lord and thoe) - but still offer more options in terms of blended/trackless/!spy (the new change in spies super enhance the ability to the point to where they're totally useless.) and creates much more headache for the aggressor - making it less often for them to attack as it impedes their ppm as well. (much like you have little fish that have different camoflauge type of abilities) - since we're using the fish comparison
the bottleneck effect that iblis was describing goes back to possibly itemizing your choices to allow more defensive measures since their growth is still slowing faster than yours with the increased costs/stagnant plat increases. The idea is that instead of going maximizing in beginning and suffering in pk instead of a more steady run pace in fear of being killed more often - seems to be the way to go in a lot of cases.
That all said, the amount of pks have already dramatically decreased due to the spy changes - anyone that's been online should be able to see that. At least from any single aggressor type of standpoint.
20-40k rank differential really the issue as much as # of practices (which have minimal effect on rank) - Class/race combinations/Ruushi gear/Practices have 10x the affect since most people are roughly similar in hp. If anything increasing the amount of rank per practice to more accurately affect a person's size would make more sense... As long as the Invasion thresholds increase proportionally since the amount of damage isn't significantly increased for most classes. Just my two cents.
V/R,
Trebax
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ReplyDeleteOkay I'll try to be as comprehensive as possible. In my opinion there are numerous factors that play a part in determining the outcome of pk, including:
Delete1. Class vs Class - Some classes are naturally stronger/weaker against others, and some classes are generally better/worse value when it comes to pk.
2. Race - Certain races have abilities that are extremely helpful in pk (i.e. sustain)
3. Size - Including pools, stats, practices as well as where those practices are placed
4. Equipment - Build (Hp and +hit are important, as well as other stats normally ignored, i.e. will, agi) and quality (i.e. Ruushi > perma)
5. Skill - Approach to pk, how you use your skills/spells, etc.
All of these factors are important, so when I initially said that 'the gap is a lot closer and can be overcome with pk-oriented race/class/eq/prac choices' what I meant was this:A player who selects a strong pk based combo and has the skill to execute his build properly can overcome a size difference in pk.
Now coming to Feather, yes - a lot of the people he has killed are probably botting, but the fact that he (as a 25k rank footpad) is able to kill them and get away with it (last I checked he had 16 kills to 2 deaths or something?) is a testament to the quality of the players themselves. The majority of players nowadays are essentially botters, so overcoming the rank difference to pk them is definitely possible.
On the other hand overcoming the rank difference against someone who is actually active is of course harder, but it is far from unattainable, This is where approach starts to count for a lot, i.e. using ranged skills, being sneaky, avoiding being hit, and so on (removing spy goes a long way to help all this). It is probably going to be extremely difficult to overcome a 40k rank difference for certain, but a 20k rank difference is definitely not that inconceivable once players hit ~55k rank (assuming that rank is placed in the right places).
Add to that the fact that systems such as flanking and wounding exist (no matter Darth's complaints) and it ensures that a group of smaller players have a decided advantage over a single huge player.
So yeah, I definitely feel that things are a lot 'closer' now than they ever have been since augments were introduced. My opinion is that it is really just down to the players - the ones that want to pk are in the minority currently, but if anyone actually does want to pk they can definitely do so quite successfully (as Feather has illustrated).
Hope that clarifies what I mean :)
-Iblis.
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